067: The Art of Feminine Selling with Julia Andrews

 

“I think that the conversations that become very successful, are not necessarily the one that closes, it’s the one that really identifies.” -Julia Andrews

Jay interviews Julia Andrews, a 20+ year veteran of sales and founder of The Art of Feminine Selling, which is a great topic, given how male-dominated the sales industry has been.  Jay talks with Julia about playing the long game, finding your authentic selling style, how to combine the masculine and feminine, how to increase your influence in the sales game, being unattached to results and how to integrate trust and intuition into your sales strategy.

 

Episode Highlights

03:00 Doing Sales in a Masculine Market
08:03 Misconceptions in Feminine Marketing
12:43 Balancing the Feminine and Masculine Aspect of Marketing
21:56 Vulnerability in the Masculine-Feminine Differential
28:29 Working with Metrics and Intuition
38:39 Qualify Your Clients
42:19 The Inner Game of Sales

 

@JayRooke talks with @Connect2Close about playing the long game, finding your authentic selling style, how to combine the masculine and feminine, how to increase your influence in the sales game and so much more at… Click To Tweet

 

Connect with Julia

Website: https://www.juliaandrews.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/connect2close/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Connect2Close
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliaandrewsco/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/juliaandrews.comm/

 

Inspirational Quotes

  • “I think that the conversations that become very successful, are not necessarily the one that closes, it’s the one that really identifies.” -Julia Andrews
  • “I think that when you understand that actually being vulnerable… it’s actually sharing with somebody and having empathy with someone.” -Julia Andrews
  • “If you don’t have a good relationship with money…you’re never going to want to talk about it, you’re never going to want to really embrace it, because it doesn’t feel good.” -Julia Andrews
  • “And when you qualify your client … you are pulling in people that really identify with you.” -Julia Andrews
  • “If you’re taking up in everybody, you’re not qualifying anybody.” -Julia Andrews
  • “Mindset is a huge piece that we need to be vulnerable, even with our own selves and recognize what parts of our lives do we need to heal.” -Julia Andrews

 

Transcription:

 

Jay Rooke: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Know Pain, Know Gain, Entrepreneurship Made Real. I’m your host Jay Rooke and we are here today with Julia Andrews, founder of The Art of Feminine Selling. Julia, thanks so much for joining us today.

Julia Andrews: Oh, I’m super excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jay Rooke: Absolutely. So, we always like to kick off with, where you’re calling in from. So where are you based out of?

Julia Andrews: I am based out of today, Portland, Oregon. (laughs)

Jay Rooke: Lovely. But previously where?

Julia Andrews: San Diego.

Jay Rooke: San Diego, so, decent transition we go from like, one of the things that I’ve noticed when I visited San Diego, it seemed like people like Windex, the sidewalks, you know, and like cars were in perfect condition is excellent and beautiful. Whereas you know, Portland, I think a little bit more let your hair down or that–

Julia Andrews: Totally. It’s a little bit different, good different.

Jay Rooke: Yeah.

Julia Andrews: But yeah. Definitely. You know, down in San Diego, super sunny and everything. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Jay Rooke: Right on.

Julia Andrews: But it’s a good transition though, nonetheless.

Jay Rooke: Yeah. Yeah. So two things why I’m really excited to have Julia on today is, one of the things that I think anyone who is not naturally inclined to selling struggles with in their small business or when they’re launching their entrepreneurial endeavor is wrapping their head around sales. You know, I always like sales to some version of dating or sex, and I feel like if for not good at sales naturally for often people, it was like their first sexual experience where it was like: “Wow, that really wasn’t how I thought it was going to be or whatever.” And so, I think it’s the element that a lot of folks don’t think about when they launch their business and it ends up being the most detrimental thing to their success. And so, I think you’ve got a ton of insight around this that I wanted to share with listeners. And what I particularly like is, The Art of Feminine Selling aspect. And then so my favorite thing to focus on in helping folks get better with sales is finding their authentic voice. And I feel like the majority, if we go over the last 40 years of selling methodology and, you know, self help books and things of that nature brings much more of a masculine athletic beat Europe opponent mentality, Rah, Rah, beat your chest, need to make blank number of calls and it doesn’t work for the majority of people that are in it. I think when my 2¢, that’s why you see so much churn in the sales industry, and folks that try and get out and whatnot. But that’s why I’m really excited today. So how about, let’s kick off with a little bit around, how you got to launching what you’re doing now and a little bit of the backstory.

Julia Andrews: Yeah, so The Art of Feminine Selling, it really started like — I think that based on the people that I had been working with, and what I hear they want it came out of, it was birthed out of that. My background is, Jeez, I’ve been in sales for 23 years, this year. While I’ve been in sales for a very long time and it’s been a lot of what you just shared. Very masculine, very, you know, I started my career, you know, knocking on doors, selling cutlery, knives–

Jay Rooke: Oh, a cutlery, alumni thing–

Julia Andrews: Oh my god, (laughs) I might plopping in here. I’m so excited. So, that’s really how I got my start. And then from there, you know, I moved into one of those people that I sold, cut, go, knives to offered me a job to work at Merrill Lynch.

Jay Rooke: How cool.

Julia Andrews: After a year obviously of kind of honing my craft right.

Jay Rooke: Right.

Julia Andrews: And then, from there I went into, you know, investments and insurance and all of that is kind of, you know, nothing as guys right? But it’s kind of a boys club. The energy is very cutthroat and I only had, you know what, I was learning to do that at the same time, but I really enjoyed what kept me in that game was building relationships, building partnerships, learning to gain trust for, you know, your future clients or prospects and then really understanding the psychology behind it. Understanding that what you’re doing is. You’re not really necessarily selling, you’re actually giving people what they need, if you have it right. And not wanting to get something from people, or do something to people. But more of present in align products and services with ideal clients.

Jay Rooke: Yeah.

Julia Andrews: Now, I’ve always, I mean ever since I’ve, you know, my entire basically career in sales has been, I’ve learned from them and it’s been, you know, courses or trainings designed for them. So, it’s has been very, you know, kind of masculine and I maybe never showed it, but I was always intimidated. I put almost a really good, you know, kind of friends about, you know, using my eight type personality. But there was a lot of intimidation on my end. I felt like: “Oh my God, can I do like this?” Like I can’t talk to people like this, but I’m very competitive at the same time. (laughs)

Jay Rooke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julia Andrews: So, I think that there was, this makes about, you know, being competitive but also wanting to bring a softer side side, a more authentic side, that people also responded to you. I naturally did gravitate towards mentors that were really killing it, but were on a different scale in terms of like they were more holistic, if you will. You know, they were more about building partnerships, building relationships, gaining trust, not being transactional, but being more of the playing the long game. And I really learned that in order to do that, you can’t just be a one off. Like you know, the sale really happens, but it’s a longevity of having recurring customers, or recurring clients coming back and referring. So, when I exited basically corporate America, if you will, I was a little, I had this desire or this yearning for more comradery with women.

Jay Rooke: Yeah–

Julia Andrews: And I didn’t necessarily knew that I was going to be teaching this. I started going to, you know, attending masterminds and having conversations with female entrepreneurs, and business owners. And it was so, it’s such a surprise to me that there was such a neater, you know, the sales conversation or sales process, you know, you go to masterminds and they always touch about, you know, like how are your selling, and you know, things to do to sell. And I would always hear this kind of like in one way or another, like: “Ugh, here we go again, we’re going to talk about those.” And I’d be like: “What’s, what’s the problem?” Like: “What’s wrong with that?” Right. And your really genuinely curious about it because I had been out of that. I mean, I’d never been an entrepreneurs. So really, my thought was that if you have a business, you automatically know how to sell. So I was clueless when it came to that and I was genuinely interested in asking what was the problem and they were just coming to me saying like: “Well, you know, it was just so difficult for me to talk about what I do or I don’t know how to initiate the conversation or as someone put it, I word vomit over them.” And I’m like: “Okay, hold on.” (laughs) So, I would kind of give them tips and then follow up with them, and “How did it go and did you land this client?” And it was very organic how it happened because they were like” “Oh my God, you should teach this.” Like: “You should go into this.” And I was like: “No, no, no, no. I’m not going to do this. I’ve been doing this for so long.” But then I realized that why not? I really enjoy the part of building relationships and connection with people. So, that’s how really this came about. The — you know, The Art of Feminine Selling was really birthed out of recognizing the need in the marketplace, and not realizing how many women entrepreneurs were really having a struggle with just having a sales call, and the rolling conversation, a sales conversation–

Jay Rooke: Right–

Julia Andrews: And it was at curiosity from starting like: “Okay, well tell me what you do?” Like: “What are you doing in these conversations?” And the biggest misconception that I saw was that they thought, because they didn’t know. That they had to be someone else or they had to put this like hat on, like a car salesman persona kind of thing, and it completely screwed them up, because all of a sudden you’re not being yourself, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re super vulnerable and super like: “What am I saying?”–

Jay Rooke: Well said.

Julia Andrews: And you know, “I’m going to sell some Bam-out.” I’m freaking-out, we’re asking for money here. And so there was this struggle happening in their mind. I’m like: “Whoa, Whoa, calm down.” Like: “No, it doesn’t have to be like that. Let’s break it down a little bit.” And that’s really where they recognize that there was a true need for it. Not just me saying like: “I’m going to help you.” NO, there is a need in demand here.

Jay Rooke: And as you share the story, one of the things that I think about in working with a business mentor of mine was how those areas of giftedness, you know, our stupid Patrick’s are often the things that we don’t view as expertise that come supernatural. And we almost assume that everyone’s that way. And then–

Julia Andrews: Yeah.

Jay Rooke: –The people around you are saying like: “Oh my God, you know, you’re so innovative or whatever that might be.”

Julia Andrews: (laughs)

Jay Rooke: But that always cracks me up. And, you know, coming back to the car sales thing, I feel so bad for all the car salesman and women out there, where at some point in the history of time, you know, the way the previous ones were acting screwed things up so badly that for generations of car sales people–

Julia Andrews: (laughs) Totally–

Jay Rooke: Need to go that way–

Julia Andrews: Yeah. That’s one of the things that I, you know, cause I always ask my audience like: “Tell me how you feel when you think of selling.” And it never fails. NEVER–

Jay Rooke: Sure, sure.

Julia Andrews: –Car salesman is right in there. (laughs) So–

Jay Rooke: –And you know what? I think that this connects to that. I was thinking about when you were talking about that transition out of corporate and playing the long game. And for me when I, when I left sales, it was when I started to feel like you said, that need to be somebody that I wasn’t. And I realized that that was being driven MORE by quarterly sales numbers. Needing to be up, than it was about me not knowing how to play the role. And I almost feel like corporate America and its obsession with quarterly earnings, and you know, like going back to the male theme, much more male driven from the top down as well. Screw so many folks up, and I’m not really convinced that it results in longer term gains necessarily versus just churning through a lot more people.

Julia Andrews: You get burned out.

Jay Rooke: Yeah, yeah, totally.

Julia Andrews: I mean I have plenty of friends that, you know, I won’t mention names obviously (laughs)–

Jay Rooke: Sure–

Julia Andrews: But it’s just like you can sustain it, and then you’re just like, every year I remember thinking like, I can’t do this another year–

Jay Rooke: Right–

Julia Andrews: –I can’t do this another year, because it’s just so demanding. And, you know, I also want to see my husband, right? Or I also wanna see my kids, or you know, you kind of have those conversations, and I mean there’s nothing wrong with that, but if you really are thinking like how much do I have on the tank, to continue this rhythm of life? So, I mean I knew I am driven, but I also knew that I wanted something more sustainable–

Jay Rooke: –Yeah.

Julia Andrews: –Even though it would take me longer to build–

Jay Rooke: –Well said.

Julia Andrews: –But not having this almost like I remember before like, I didn’t want anybody to bother me on the weekends. Like: “Don’t talk to me. I’m recuperating here.” (laughs)

Jay Rooke: –I got you, I got you.

Julia Andrews: And I just, you know, you become, you know, this almost like, it’s not that you want to be mean or something, but you almost become like this personality where it’s like you’re short with people–

Jay Rooke: –Yes.

Julia Andrews: You’re a little bit over demanding on things. You’re, I don’t know, it was weird.

Jay Rooke: Right, right. My favorite one would be the quarters about to end and the sales manager’s direction was: “Hey, call up all the people that are on the list and try to close them in the next week.” And you’re like: “Bro, this is not their timeline, so how–“

Julia Andrews: I know. Exactly.

Jay Rooke: “–Call up the people and be like, you need to accelerate this because I’ve got to make a quarter number.”

Julia Andrews: Yeah, yeah. It’s, its—

Jay Rooke: One of the things I want to touch on that. I think it’s really interesting about what you’re doing is, if we look at the traditional male side of selling, I think there are some values in some of those more and you know, we have to do some broad generalizations and stereotypes in here, but let’s call it that more competitive nature, that more aggro ambitious go after stuff thing. So, for me, those turn into disciplines around you make a certain number of cold calls each day, or whatever that looks like. If we flip it over, what I really like about this is — how do we take these two and combine them, the feminine and the masculine, and you’re much more in touch with this than I am. So, I’d love to hear your thoughts on what some of those more feminine disciplines would be that folks can, you know, lean back into to start to either invoke the feminine for the first time ever, or start to learn how to, you know, dance with a balance between the two.

Julia Andrews: So, just like you said, I think they’re really good positives when you have this male energy to it. So, it’s not like all were demonizing this at all, right? We’re not doing that. But I think that it’s important to recognize what parts of it is gonna move you forward, in what parts of it is going to pull you away from your goal. Let’s just say. So, I think for instance, it’s super important to track, you know, to track your business, to know your numbers. I think a lot. I, I, when I say, when I talk about like: “You should know your numbers.” People look at me like: “What are you saying? I you speaking modularly?” And I say like: “No, like, you need to understand where you’re going so you can reverse engineer. You know, how you’re going to get there, because we need to break this down in just bite size and your going to do that. We need to understand what’s the goal for the year.” Now, this can be very masculine. Are you — you’re going to be very goal oriented. So, what’s the goal for the year? We break it down into quarters. And then from quarters, you’re breaking down into months, and into weeks, so that, you’re able to know — How many calls do I have to make? How many outreaches? How many places do I have to, you know, depending on your business model, right? So people do things online, and how much activity or outreach or prospecting, the same thing just kind of dress up differently–

Jay Rooke: –Yup

Julia Andrews: –You need to do, in order to achieve that. And what disciplines do you have to keep? So, taking the masculine and fusing it with the feminine. I think that it’s important to look at the view reel with realistic, not do any this –association where you’re like: “Ugh, I don’t want to look at this.” Right, what is the business aspect that I need to understand and to know in order to be successful? And that part it could be very masculine, I think. And then also how can I bring in my own personality, my own authentic self and, and be feminine. You know, if a woman you know, can be sometimes a little bit more masculine, a little bit more feminine, we’re not talking necessarily about that, but it’s really bringing, who you are into the conversation. But it has — there has to be a structure involved in order for this, not to be a hobby, but to make it an actual business, and there are very positive things. Then there are very positive attributes, and that masculine attributes, which is like, you know, being competitive and you don’t have to necessarily be keeping up with the Joneses per se, but keeping up to what is the — where do you want to be? What are your personal standards? If were speaking $100,000 a year. Perfect. If it’s making $1,000,000 a year, it’s going to require different activity, but the goals, we can’t ignore that side of it. The tracking, because it’ll tell you where you’re at, and what I’m describing right now is a little bit more masculine, heavy, more masculine driven, and that part you still need it. In order to make your business a success or make it, you know, get momentum going. Right, and the sign of the feminine. I think that because we’ve been, or we’ve seen a lot of sales trainings that are designed for men by men. When we want to bring in our more softer side or more feminine sides to the equation, we feel like: “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t be vulnerable. Maybe I shouldn’t share. Maybe I shouldn’t be approaching this conversation in this manner, because I’m going to be looked at as weak or maybe I’m going to be looked at like I’m not controlling the conversation or whatever.” Right? It’s not really about that in my opinion. This is again, I mean there’s a lot of different ways of getting to the finish line. So you know, pick the one that works for you. That’s my opinion–

Jay Rooke: –Yeah.

Julia Andrews: But the way that I do it is assuming that you are talking to a viable lead, right? Someone that you’ve qualified, someone that you think and believe that you can help and support, have a conversation like you would have with any other human being. Like talk to them as you would talk to anybody. And the way that you are going to have success in that conversation and success doesn’t necessarily mean closing the sale. What it means is that they got the understanding that maybe you were not the person for the job, or they thought that, you know, they believed and now they’re moving forward with you. Because, I think that one of the things that you should go into when speaking with a prospect is being unattached to them, moving forward with you or not, but be committed and involved and helping them make a decision. Either moving forward with you or not moving forward with you. But at the end of the day, they’re walking out of that conversation with more knowledge, with more value than otherwise it would have if they wouldn’t have met you or talk to you. So, I think that the conversations that become very successful are not necessarily one that closes. It’s the one that really identifies, I mean, we all want to make money. I mean, let’s make no mistake about that, right? But what I’m saying is you want to make sure that you’re bringing in the right people into your practice, into your business as your clients versus just anybody. Right? Because I’m sure our listeners can attest to this, it doesn’t matter if you’re just starting out in, and need clients or you’ve had it, you know, you’re a little bit more seasoned. We’ve all had the awkward, the moment where we take in a client because we need it. And then we’re like: “Oh my God, this is like, this is just bad writers–” like —

Jay Rooke: Worst money ever earned.

Julia Andrews: Exactly, it’s like you can pay me enough to keep the prison on–

Jay Rooke: Totally–

Julia Andrews: And it’s sometimes, you know, we need to learn that lesson, but then you recognize that there is value in saying NO to someone, or not making one offer. I can tell you plenty of experiences where even in a seasoned salesperson where I wanted to maybe in my very first consulting client, get my very big ticket client, and recognizing that maybe there was red flags there, and I took them on and I was just like, at the end of the day it didn’t work out, because it was just not the right fit. But now I know that I know, you know, my intuition, I need to listen to that part of it as well. And everybody learns at different times and different, you know, lessons in different moments. But, I think that’s a very important part of it. When I say that a successful conversation is also one that you recognize that maybe this is not the right person for me, as just getting the job

Jay Rooke: For sure. Let’s do this, speaking on tracking goals and hitting numbers and metrics, let’s take a quick pause and hear from our commercial sponsors. Loving this conversation. When come back, we’re going to continue with Julia Andrews, founder of The Art of Feminine Selling. I’m your host, Jay Rooke, Know Pain, Know Gain. We’ll be right back.

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Jay Rooke: Hey everyone, welcome back to no pain, no gain. We’re here today with Julia Andrews, founder of The Art of Feminine Selling. Julia, before the break you were talking about being vulnerable and with my own coach, this has been a topic that we’ve been working on for myself a lot lately. And you know, going back to the whole feminine -masculine differential, I find women — and generally speaking to be much more willing/courageous to be vulnerable. Whereas guys typically have a little bit more of a protective veneer. And I remember when I was going into sales meetings as a zero sum game equation and am I going to win? And am I not? I found it really difficult to be vulnerable in those moments, which I’m sure you know, costs me the loss of some sales. And so we’d love for you to comment a little bit on vulnerability, and how you think that can get woven into effective sales conversations.

Julia Andrews: So, I think that, well, first to address your first part of the question, I think that men are almost like the trained somehow not to be vulnerable?

Jay Rooke: Yes.

Julia Andrews: So, they have in the back of their mind that if they are vulnerable, that looks up as a weakness. Like–

Jay Rooke: Right, right.

Julia Andrews: And nobody wants to be weak. I mean we’re fighters, right? I mean you guys, you want to be looked at as you know, the conquerors, the guys that can make everything happen.

Jay Rooke: Right! An ALPHA MALE.

Julia Andrews: Yeah. (Laughs) And through vulnerability in, it’s just not something that historically has been viewed as a strong positive. You know, someone that just, it’s just not the kind of talk that you talk about. Right. And I think that when you understand that actually being vulnerable is not necessarily like, you know, open up your heart and crying or anything like that. When you understand that being vulnerable is actually sharing with somebody in having empathy with someone, and actually touching on maybe, you know, depending on what is it that you’re selling, but trying to look for a moment in your personal life that you can sincerely, you know, share something about, you know, why are you doing what you’re doing or what happened when you, I don’t know, maybe how to — a similar situation that your prospect, you instantly create an authentic bond.

Jay Rooke: Uhmmmnnn

Julia Andrews: Not fabricating relate-ability which is what sales people do, because obviously people want to have conversations with people they know, like, and trust. And the more you look, sound, feel, and you know everything like them, the better they’re going to, you know, trust you. So, when you can find a point or a moment in your conversation where you’re actually sharing from truth, from a place of authenticity, it creates a natural inorganic bond with the other person. “Is that going to lead to a sale?” “No, it doesn’t guarantee.”

Jay Rooke: Next step in the—

Julia Andrews: Absolutely, because what you’re doing is you’re creating trust and you’re opening up, you’re kind of like, you know, a sales very similar to — your moving someone along a line of a conversation. And when you are continuing to have, you know, very impactful and evoking emotional questions that allow them to open up little by little, you’re moving them along too, so that, they can feel more comfortable and in their mind, they’re thinking like” “Okay, this person, I trust this person. I like what they’re saying. My rational mind is not, you know, screaming and yelling that this is not good. My emotional mind is aligned. Let’s keep the conversation moving.”

Jay Rooke: Yup.

Julia Andrews: Whereas, if you’re feeling like whatever the person is saying does not make sense, you know, your BS alert on your rational mind is like yelling at you and all of a sudden you are distracted.

Jay Rooke: Totally, totally.

Julia Andrews: So, you’re not gonna make an investment, if you’re kind of in that moment. And I think that it’s important to practice those moments in those conversations being maybe in the moment you’re going to be like: “Okay, here I go again.” Like: “I’m going to be vulnerable. I’m going to share.” And I think it’s a skill to do it in business, because in business you need to be tight, you know, buttoned up and not supposed to be sharing your emotions, and all that crap, which in reality, you know, if you’re in business, you’re in the business of people. You know, sales is, you’re selling every day. I mean whether you like it or not, you’re always selling because you’re always trying to influence someone, and either they’re influencing you or you’re influencing them. It could be as, you know, influencing your kids to make their bed, or influencing your partner to go to this restaurant, or your friends to watch this movie. It’s always an enrollment conversation, but we don’t look at it like that.

Jay Rooke: Right.

Julia Andrews: Right. And I think that the — some of the most powerful conversations are when we are authentically sharing with one another about what is it that we want? What is it that we desire? What is it that gets in the way? Where is the breakdown happening? And if you are able within your conversation to show your prospect that there is a way, then you are more positioned to be the person that is going to help them, you know, provide a solution for their frustration, their situation. So, I think it’s super important to be authentic and it comes back to you like: “Why in the world are you doing what you’re doing?” This is a very emotional conversation. Believe it or not. I mean, we’re not — if you’re selling something that it’s not like, you know, $2 or with trinkets or whatever, if people are really seriously investing in you, and what is it that you do if there’s going to be an emotional sale at the end of the day. So you have to be comfortable going there with your prospects, so that they know that they’re taken care of. And more. So, if you’re talking to women, let me tell you something. Women do not budge if they don’t feel safe.

Jay Rooke: Yeah, yeah. Well said.

Julia Andrews: That is the character I’ve, you know, been taught to sell specifically away for — to sell to men and to women. And women do not want to feel that they’re not safe. And if you’re not willing to open up your door and really go there with them, why would they do that with you?

Jay Rooke: Right, right. And, and to your point around — I mean I’ve, I really like what you’re saying on that. And connecting back to the WHY. When I first started out my business coaching practice, I was naming more of like the things you do with coaching or the process or whatever that looked like, when I connect with the WHY and it sounded more like: “Hey, back in the day I left the practice of law to follow my passion and open a restaurant and eventually failed. And my mission now is to help other people pursue their dreams without losing their sanity and their savings.” It’s such a different conversation. The energy was completely different. It was such an easier way to lead and in my opinion, it buys you immediate credibility, you know, when it’s a TRUE AUTHENTIC WHY, it doesn’t mean you’re still the right person for them or not, but you just act differently.

Julia Andrews: Yeah, for sure. It’s super important.

Jay Rooke: When you were talking about vulnerability earlier and how to find one’s authentic style for everyone that’s not a hundred percent naturally gifted at selling. For me, the vulnerability is necessary to be there. In order to find your authentic style, meaning you need to be vulnerable enough to experiment with different selling styles, which means you’re gonna have to kiss some frogs along the way. It’s not always going to work. You’re probably going to embarrass yourself a little bit at some point in time, but that’s the fastest, most efficient path to helping you identify what that style is so you can start building on it. And I would say, you know, for those of you that are in that boat of not being naturally gifted at sales, my 2¢ is there’s no other way through this door, but to start to experiment and find your own style, otherwise you’re just going to, you know, keep banging your head against the door and eventually says: “Sales isn’t right for me.” And one of the thing that I wanted to connect around was I view, you know, enlisting intuition on the more feminine end of the spectrum. And I think for guys, especially for like those that are under the thumb of a sales manager that’s very quant and metrics driven. So, they have to come back and say: “Oh, I didn’t call someone, or I didn’t engage with that conversation, or bring on that client cause it felt intuitively wrong.” Would basically make their head explode.

Julia Andrews: Totally, a 100%.

Jay Rooke: Talk a little bit about intuition in the sales process because to your point, those worst clients that I took on were the ones that were right on paper, but didn’t feel right inside. And I guess going back to either emotional intelligence or vulnerability, I didn’t feel safe enough to say no to some of those at a certain point in my career.

Julia Andrews: Yeah. So this is a two pronged question. Let me answer the first one with the manager because I’ve had those. So, one thing that I always enlist myself in, is whatever is it that I’m selling, if I’m selling investment, if I’m selling a product, a service, whatever it is, I have to be sold on the fact that why I’m doing it. Like it has to be something that I so believe in, and I know that it can make such a difference for people, for me to go down that road. And if I, you know, if I have a sales manager breathing down my throat, that would not happen. (laughs) But, I have to back that up as well.

Jay Rooke: Yeah.

Julia Andrews: So at the end of the day, this is business. So, we’re not running a charity here and we want to understand, well, if I didn’t sell to that person because I may be executive decision that this was not right for them, then what am I doing in other to make, you know, my goal. Am I calling other people? Am I having, you know, a lunch and learn? I’m like — what activities am I doing to make sure that I am hitting my goals and I am targeting the right people? Because, if you didn’t sell to someone, and in your heart you believe that it wasn’t the right move for them then so be it. You know–

Jay Rooke: Imagine the power of calling that out in that sales meeting and saying: “Hey, you know, I’d love your business today, but on reflecting on this, I really don’t think this is the right fit for you so, I’m not going to continue with this. But Hey, before we end the meeting, is there anybody that in your network that you do think is the right fit for this?” You would’ve never gotten to that level of credibility where they might open up the Rolodex without, I mean their minds probably going to blow off their shoulder and be like: “Wait a minute, you’re a salesperson that just said, you’re not going to sell this to me. Okay, I trust you.”

Julia Andrews: Exactly. Because–

Jay Rooke: Those moves your, your, your metrics forward to your sales managers saying like: “Hey, I got four referrals and I know they can do it.”

Julia Andrews: Totally, at the end of the day, I mean this is, we’re in the people business and referrals are something that we absolutely need, and I mean the value of a referral, just think about what it costs you to get a new client. So, it just, you know, it’s obviously good. The second part of the question was about what did the tell — (laughs) I know about the manager, what was it again? (laughs)

Jay Rooke: The one to enlist intuition a little bit more than your sales process and start to honor that sense.

Julia Andrews: Okay.

Jay Rooke: Yeah.

Julia Andrews: I think that you really have to be honest with yourself. I think that you really need to understand who you are? What are your values? What do you stand for? Being aligned? You talked about having a person that is right on paper and completely wrong in practice. And so I’ll share, you know, one client that I had that was totally right on paper and it just became a disaster. And I think that I knew my intuition said: “Julia, this is not the right client for you.” But, you know, (laughs) but, everything else is like: “They need me. They need to build a sales team. I know how to do that. I know how to sell.” You know, all I was trying to kind of negotiate with myself, and you find yourself negotiating with yourself in not the best terms. Like I was, I mean I was looking at what is the downside and I didn’t want to look at what could be the downside. I was just looking at it out the upside and I was not being like, you know, there’s a book that I’ve been reading from Keith Cunningham, it’s called: The Road Less Stupid–

Jay Rooke: Huh! Well done.

Julia Andrews: And it’s an incredible book and it talks about, you know, the entrepreneur has like about four or five hats when you’re first starting out that you need to master, you have the Artist — which is the person that’s like: “Okay, I’m going to do this and I’m going to put these programs together.” You have the Operations Person — which is: “Okay, process oriented, how are we going to get this done?” You have the Business Owner — which is like: “Okay, I need to make money. Money needs to come in.” And I guess there’s more, and then you have the Board of Directors — which is: “What is the downside? What is the upside? How can–” you know, you’re really analyzing from all angles of, you know, how can this deal blow up? Or how can it be great? And it’s almost very unemotional. It’s very black and white kind of thing, and you need that. Right. And I was not, you know, enlisting my board of directions in my mind — board of directors in my mind, I was just going for, I need this and it’s going to be amazing. I’m going to get amazing referrals and blah, blah, blah. And then what happened was, you know, we had a six month contract and it completely blew up in my face. I had to basically fire my client three months in, and I realized that if I had listened to my intuition, I wouldn’t have gone through that. And I see it as a lesson for me to trust when I’m telling myself this is not the right move. Maybe, I don’t understand it in the moment, but TRUST that there’s going to be an outcome and there’s going to be a reason WHY. And that reason why I came out nine days after and I was like, what am I doing here? And it felt completely wrong. And I mean that was my lesson, but I think that it is important just when I also took on another client that I was just like: “I don’t know if I’m going to make it. I don’t — this is a big client, this is great. Right?” But I was a little bit nervous, because I had just gotten that situation, that experience with this other consulting client, and I was a little bit apprehensive and I was like: “Oh my God, what if this goes bad again and etc.” But, all the right signs were there, and I was the one putting myself in the way. I was basically blocking from moving forward. And then, I really got quiet and I really said: “Okay, is it because you’re nervous and is it because you’re scared of going through the same experience you did.” And when I was able to be honest with myself and say: “Yes, I am scared. I don’t want to go through the same thing that happened.” And I recognize that the circumstances were different. This client was in a completely different market. I knew the market like at the back of my hand and I said: “Okay, let’s do it.” And it feels so good and we’re getting, you know, so much traction. And it’s like night and day from the other one. So, recognizing both parts of when it’s fear and when it’s actually, you’re just wanting to not really look at holistically, how this could be good? Or also how this could be really bad? (laughs)–

Jay Rooke: Right.

Julia Andrews: It’s important and it comes down to trust and to be authentic with yourself.

Jay Rooke: Yeah. The value of self awareness and sales.

Julia Andrews: Yeah.

Jay Rooke: Speaking of intuition, my intuition says that it’s about time for another sponsor breaks. Let’s do a quick pause, and we’re here today with Julia Andrews, founder of The Art of Feminine Selling, loving this conversation around sales. We’ll be right back after the break.

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Jay Rooke: Hey everybody. Welcome back to our final segment of Know Pain, Know Gain. I’m your host Jay Rooke and we are here today with Julia Andrews, founder of The Art of Feminine Selling. So Julia, before the break we were talking about, you know, occasionally getting those clients that we take on, that we know aren’t the right fit, but we do it anyways. And one of my thoughts on that, especially at the start of my career as a business coach, was noticing that I was being more buttoned up, a little bit more corporate. You know, kind of aligning more with my past, which is ironic is I left it cause I didn’t want to be doing it, but I thought that’s how I quote unquote should be. And so for me, if you start getting any frequency of the wrong types of people coming in, it’s a good indicator that yourself selling and that your marketing is speaking to the wrong audience a little bit. I’m curious, you have any thoughts on that?

Julia Andrews: 100% so anybody that’s worked with me either as a student, private client, corporate client, know that I will always talk about qualifying your clients. And when you qualify your clients, you do it in your marketing, you do it in your messaging, and it’s very intentional. If you want to be polarizing to the effect that you are pulling in the people that really identify with you, they’re really jive with you, they’re really like you, and want to hear more about what you have to say, and you want to push the other people back. And I think that a lot of times I hear people being a little bit afraid because they don’t want to, they don’t want to steer the pod. They don’t want to, you know, they want to like everybody, and the fact of the matter is, if you’re taking out in everybody, you’re not all fine anybody.

Jay Rooke: Yeah.

Julia Andrews: And that is a very hard, you’re going to get such a huge mix of people that you’re going to ace or thinking that something’s wrong with you because they’re not buying, you can’t sell. And the reality is that you’re specifically trying to sell to someone that has not raised their hand to say: “I want what you have to offer.” Jay Abraham, one of the best and biggest and you know, kind of like “Oh, jeez, of marketing.” Right? Has said: “The worst thing you could do is to try to sell something to someone that doesn’t want it.”

Jay Rooke: Hmmmnn…

Julia Andrews: And that’s an uphill battle. And we’re not in the business of convincing people I am not. Right? So, what you want to do is be able to, when you start, as you mentioned, when you start attracting people that really are not the right kind of people, you want to look at, what am I putting out in my marketing? What am I saying? Am I using things that I think they want to hear? Or am I actually taking the words out of the Horse’s mouth? Right, out of your clients, and how they describe about the thing that you do. Like, for me for — would never say for instance: “Are you allergic to selling?” I would ever say that, but my art audience does. So, in my marketing I use it because that’s how they feel–

Jay Rooke: –Yup.

Julia Andrews: –Obviously. So, you want to make sure that you’re being close, you’re not being too big, that you’re not listening to the people that are actually your clients are buying from you, and you want to be using their own way of saying things that are they’re — still selecting themselves to basically identify with, you know, with you. And in addition to that, obviously once you’ve done that part of the marketing, the messaging, which does the heavy lifting for you, you also want to make sure that you have intake questionnaires, application so that, you can continue to sift through the people that are either just tire kickers, or the people that really just want to pick your brain that really have no intention of even ever buying. And because once you get on a phone with someone and you have your discovery session, or strategy session, or whatever you call it. You want to make sure that conversation is more about: “Let’s see if we’re aligning together versus let me sell you something.” This people make up their minds about who you are, and if they’re gonna buy from way before you ask for the business. Right. So I think that you cannot ignore that or else you’re going to run into a lot of frustrations and blame yourself for it.

Jay Rooke: Yeah. And speaking on that note of blaming self, as you were describing, whether or not folks are able to be courageous enough to say, no, these are the types of people that I want to work with. It comes to mind to me that we’re talking about an abundance or scarcity mentality at that moment, which for me connects next to other than just straight up entrepreneurship, I feel like sales has been one of the most emotionally volatile careers that I’ve had. And so, you know, let’s spend a few minutes and talk about the inner game of sales and how that plays out because for me, that’s where it’s won or lost coming out of the gate.

Julia Andrews: So, you can have — you’re absolutely right. One of the things that I teach in a course that I teach obviously (laughs), it’s called the inner game of sales. And we start up the module with mindset and purpose. I didn’t recognize that that was important. I thought that, you know, like I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast. That everybody that was an owner would know how to sell and the fact wasn’t. I did a Beta testing with about 50 to 60 women. I got on the phone with them and I reviewed, basically I help them with their enrollment conversation. And what was going on in their mind was they were not connected. They were speeding through the work, very scared of asking for the business, right, or asking, biting people to join their, you know, services or programs or what have you. And what I recognize in that moment was that there was this disconnect with their purpose, with their mind, with their mindset, and all of their crap came up bowling up, when they were in this enrolling conversation. “I’m not good enough.” , “Oh my God, I’m going to ask for money.” , “Who am I to ask for money?” You know, all these kind of like personal issues that maybe we have not addressed, in a sales conversation. So funny, there’s exchange of money. So, if you have money issues, you know, get ready. Now if you’re selling your own stuff, oh my God, now it’s like: “Who am I to sell?” So that’s another thing. And then also if you don’t recognize and reconcile, what is it really that’s happening in your mind when you’re actually going through this conversation? You can have the best scripts, you can have the best structure. You can have the best coach, and you’re always going to fall short, because you’re going to stop yourself from moving forward, because it’s so uncomfortable.

Jay Rooke: –Yes.

Julia Andrews: Because you have not really looked at why is it uncomfortable? What are you making this conversation about? Like what’s going on? Do we have to have, you know, going back to, like you said something about, you know, like sales and sex. Well, let me bring it back to you. If you don’t have a good relationship with money, guess what’s going to happen? It’s like you’re never gonna want to talk about it. You’re never gonna want to really embrace it, because it doesn’t feel good. Just like expected and feel good. I wish, I don’t know like, who would say that? (laughs)

Jay Rooke: Right, right, totally, totally. (laughs)

Julia Andrews: Right? But, it’s the same thing. You’re going to avoid it at all cost. So, I think that’s very important and it happens to more people that we want to say. Like nobody wants to say like: “Oh, I’m an entrepreneurial, and oh, I suck at sales.” Nobody wants to say that. That’s almost embarrassing. In fact, is nobody teaches like unless you have a career where you are trained, you know, you’re in and you’re out on sales, there’s a lot of stuff that you don’t realize in the majority of what keeps you in it or out of it, is your mindset–

Jay Rooke: Right.–

Julia Andrews: Literally.

Jay Rooke: Totally, yup.

Julia Andrews: You really need to be strong and actually look at where are you really falling short. Like where is it? What’s going on? And this is where it gets really like more even vulnerable, and more about self love, and self care, and taking care of yourself is: “What’s going on? Well, let’s talk about money for just a quick moment.” If we look at your relationship with money, and I’ve met people that have amazing careers, the when and now into the entrepreneurship and all of a sudden they’re debilitated. They can’t ask for money, you know, to save their life. And I’m like: “What the hell you haven’t, I mean you’re a dedicated or a decorated.” I want to say like: “You have all these awards, and you know what, you do with all this other stuff.” Like: “Why are you being like — why are you triggered?”

Jay Rooke: Yup

Julia Andrews: And it’s because most of the time some of these initial memories that we get have nothing to do with our grownup life, has everything to do. When we were young and how we saw our parents interact with money, were they always telling us like: “Oh, money doesn’t grow on trees or money this or money that.” And then we have this old programming about, you know, money scarce. If I get it, it’s not coming back. You know? And then we have, we have this distorted relationship with money. Then now that we’re actually going to be asking for money for a product or service that we’re selling, our old programming comes back and we are — we haven’t updated that software basically. So, we need to address what’s happening. I had a client one time we were going over, you know, I never tell, I encourage people not to look at, I don’t even say like when you’re in a conversation and somebody doesn’t want to buy, what are these things called? I forgot. — Yeah, I never called objections. I always called them concerns. People have concerns. Anyway, so I was training, I was helping this woman and she was telling me how she didn’t want to have sales conversation, because oh my God, God forbid if she got a rejection, you know, kind of like an objection. She would feel like this debilitating feeling and not wanting to move forward on the call was just like: “Okay, we’re done here.”–

Jay Rooke: Right, right.

Julia Andrews: And then I look at it and I was like: “Wait a minute, hold on, stop right here.” I said: “What? Can you remember a moment in your life, that you were rejected? That was so debilitating for you?” And we started, you know, we took a couple minutes and then she recognized that when she was young, she, you know, her father would always be away and when she felt rejected by him, it was one of these things. It was, it was almost like her little girl was showing up every time she was getting rejected and she couldn’t move on from that. So, that’s why it’s so important to recognize where are we in these conversations, and mindset is a huge piece that we need to be vulnerable even with our own selves and recognize what parts of our lives do we need to heal, or maybe parents, or maybe grow from, to be able to have a successful sales conversation without being triggered. You know, from past situations that have nothing to do with the conversation in front of you.

Jay Rooke: Yup. I love that because if we think about, you could be saying your sales script perfectly, but if your underlying stuff has not been cleaned up yet or you saw some of those triggers, that’s being picked up on, I think more than we own in those conversations. And I’ve also had conversations where I know I’ve completely blown the sales script or said the wrong thing, but gotten business out of it, because I was authentic during that process. And so, I really believe in what you’re saying. Julia, I think this is such a critical conversation today because it’s so meaningful for how entrepreneurs can, or cannot move forward. And so, I really appreciate your time and I’m sure listeners would love to follow up and engage with you, learn more, consume more of your thought leadership around this. How can listeners either find you, follow you, get whatever that might look like?

Julia Andrews: Yeah, I mean social media, I’m all over social media, so if you go on Instagram is @juliaandrews.comm with two M’s at the end because somebody took the one, there’s a bunch of a link on there with a bunch of different places you can find me or you can go to my website, JuliaAndrews.com just with one M, and I also have a gift for all your listeners if they want to kind of get a little bit of — it’s almost like a little mini checklist around things never to say on discovery calls. If they go to GiftFromJulia.com then they’ll be able to download it. It’s an opt-in, but if you want to opt-out, just you know, download the thing and opt-out. I’m not — my feelings are not going to be hurt, but it’s a really great thing. I got it out of that Beta testing of interviewing all these women and the things that we’re saying on discovery calls that were really chilling their sales, and what to do instead so we can go there, and get that free gift.

Jay Rooke: Awesome. Hey, thank you so much for that. I really appreciate it. And on behalf of myself and all of our listeners, I thank you for your time and sharing your wisdom and expertise today. We’d love to have you back on the show sometime in the future. I think this is a consistently evolving topic, and what I notice is our relationship to the topic also evolves with time. And so even hearing another conversation on this eight year from now, I’d probably gleam a lot of new stuff out of it that I didn’t get the first time. So, thank you a ton for being here today.

Julia Andrews: Oh My pleasure. It’s been so fun. Thank you.

Jay Rooke: Awesome. Hey folks, that’s it. Another episode of Know Pain, Know Gain in the tank. Very much appreciate you all listening. I love you all, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.

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